Seite - 908 - in The Complete Plato

is neither. PROTARCHUS: Very good. SOCRATES: Now, can that which is neither be either gold or silver? PROTARCHUS: Impossible. SOCRATES: No more can that neutral or middle life be rightly or reasonably spoken or thought of as pleasant or painful. PROTARCHUS: Certainly not. SOCRATES: And yet, my friend, there are, as we know, persons who say and think so. PROTARCHUS: Certainly. SOCRATES: And do they think that they have pleasure when they are free from pain? PROTARCHUS: They say so. SOCRATES: And they must think or they would not say that they have pleasure. PROTARCHUS: I suppose not. SOCRATES: And yet if pleasure and the negation of pain are of distinct natures, they are wrong. PROTARCHUS: But they are undoubtedly of distinct natures. SOCRATES: Then shall we take the view that they are three, as we were just now saying, or that they are two only—the one being a state of pain, which is an evil, and the other a cessation of pain, which is of itself a good, and is called pleasant? PROTARCHUS: But why, Socrates, do we ask the question at all? I do not see the reason. SOCRATES: You, Protarchus, have clearly never heard of certain enemies of our friend Philebus. PROTARCHUS: And who may they be? SOCRATES: Certain persons who are reputed to be masters in natural philosophy, who deny the very existence of pleasure. PROTARCHUS: Indeed! SOCRATES: They say that what the school of Philebus calls pleasures are all of them only avoidances of pain. 908