Seite - 1503 - in The Complete Plato

attained, just as the continuance of an entire state in the practice of common meals is also deemed impossible. And although this latter is partly disproven by the fact of their existence among you, still even in your cities the common meals of women would be regarded as unnatural and impossible. I was thinking of the rebelliousness of the human heart when I said that the permanent establishment of these things is very difficult. Megillus. Very true. Athenian. Shall I try and find some sort of persuasive argument which will prove to you that such enactments are possible, and not beyond human nature? Cleinias. By all means. Athenian. Is a man more likely to abstain from the pleasures of love and to do what he is bidden about them, when his body is in a good condition, or when he is in an ill condition, and out of training? Cleinias. He will be far more temperate when he is in training. Athenian. And have we not heard of Iccus of Tarentum, who, with a view to the Olympic and other contests, in his zeal for his art, ind also because he was of a manly and temperate disposition, never had any connection with a woman or a youth during the whole time of his training? And the same is said of Crison and Astylus and Diopompus and many others; and yet, Cleinias, they were far worse educated in their minds than your and my citizens, and in their bodies far more lusty. Cleinias. No doubt this fact has been often affirmed positively by the ancients of these athletes. Athenian. And had they; courage to abstain from what is ordinarilly deemed a pleasure for the sake of a victory in wrestling, running, and the like; and shall our young men be incapable of a similar endurance for the sake of a much nobler victory, which is the noblest of all, as from their youth upwards we will tell them, charming them, as we hope, into the belief of this by tales and sayings and songs? Cleinias. Of what victory are you speaking? Athenian. Of the victory over pleasure, which if they win, they will live happily; or if they are conquered, the reverse of happily. And, further, may we not suppose that the fear of impiety will enable them to master that which other inferior people have mastered? Cleinias. I dare say. Athenian. And since we have reached this point in our legislation, and have 1503